tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post7372553938780936677..comments2024-03-21T12:32:16.065-05:00Comments on Frankly Speaking: Lent FilterFrank Bellizzihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07949066335378651585noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-56471552401813491052014-03-05T09:42:29.709-06:002014-03-05T09:42:29.709-06:00I know I'm just a country pumpkin, but I can&#...I know I'm just a country pumpkin, but I can't find Lent anywhere in the Bible. What I do find is whenever I have a difficult decision or heaviness on my heart I should take it to the Lord. Therefore fasting and time in prayer is the model my Jesus sat before me. Not just one time a year. LisaAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12159304520793267141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-44849499803575373382007-03-23T16:04:00.000-05:002007-03-23T16:04:00.000-05:00I'm afraid you're right.I'm afraid you're right.Frank Bellizzihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07949066335378651585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-17157566215007337382007-03-23T14:07:00.000-05:002007-03-23T14:07:00.000-05:00Frank,I think you're articulating something that f...Frank,<BR/>I think you're articulating something that few people in the Churches of Christ understand. Granted, they would never baptize an infant, but the idea of baptismal regeneration is what many folks in the Church of Christ actually believe.john alan turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03065084395340701275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-21104734526976811292007-03-23T12:27:00.000-05:002007-03-23T12:27:00.000-05:00John Alan, I guess I was thinking about how Church...John Alan, I guess I was thinking about how Churches of Christ baptize only believers. According to Roman Catholics (as well as Lutherans), the sprinkling of an infant effects regeneration.Frank Bellizzihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07949066335378651585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-69270441864183396632007-03-23T00:11:00.000-05:002007-03-23T00:11:00.000-05:00Frank,I think the number of people who could artic...Frank,<BR/>I think the number of people who could articulate the differences between the Church of Christ's sacramental view of baptism and the Roman Catholic's sacramental view of baptism are very few indeed!john alan turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03065084395340701275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-59034886158155835162007-03-22T14:33:00.000-05:002007-03-22T14:33:00.000-05:00Having slept since yesterday, I want to add a coup...Having slept since yesterday, I want to add a couple of responses to what some have said so far. Naturally, I don't want to be too picky. I'm just aiming at greater clarity.<BR/><BR/>Greg, you say that scriptural vs. unscriptural is not the way to go. But in your second paragraph, you add that no one thinks Lent is mandated by Scritpure. What would be the difference between mandated vs. unmandated and scriptural vs. unscriptural?<BR/><BR/>John Alan, regarding your first comment, I still don't know what to do with the word "sacraments." If by that term we mean something that conveys to us the grace of God, then the whole world is a big bunch of sacraments. On the other hand, I do see baptism and the Lord' Supper as depicted in the NT as having a unique sacramental character to them. <BR/><BR/>For many years now, I've wondered about those passages in the Gospels where Jesus demands others to eat his flesh and drink his blood and, especially, where the eyes of the disciples are opened to the identity of the resurrected Christ whenever he breaks and blesses bread, giving it to the disciples to eat (Lk. 24:30-31). Could those passages be understood in the same way John 3 ("born of the water and the Spirit") points forward to baptism and the reception of the Spirit, ala Acts 2:38 et al?<BR/><BR/>If so, then thinking in the Churches of Christ regarding the Lord's Supper really should "catch up" to our "sacramental" view of baptism, which, as you know, maintains significant distinctions from Catholic views and practices.Frank Bellizzihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07949066335378651585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-91873316243245696732007-03-21T14:49:00.000-05:002007-03-21T14:49:00.000-05:00Oh. . . . That . . . I should have known better...Oh. . . . That . . . I should have known better.<BR/><BR/>Maybe that guy was taking it in the morning and then going to the little room for the Sunday-night special too. My question is, Does that really count as twice, or just once?Frank Bellizzihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07949066335378651585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-52235089927464102342007-03-21T11:22:00.000-05:002007-03-21T11:22:00.000-05:00Frank,I didn't mean that as a positive. For exampl...Frank,<BR/>I didn't mean that as a positive. For example, my father once had a man tell him that he knew he was going to heaven because he had taken the Lord's Supper more than 1,500 times! <BR/><BR/>That's the kind of sacramental view I was thinking of.john alan turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03065084395340701275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-73946551308859375272007-03-21T10:33:00.000-05:002007-03-21T10:33:00.000-05:00You're right, John Alan. We have been arbitrary w...You're right, John Alan. We have been arbitrary when it comes to what we're willing to allow, or not. Having spent a lot of time among traditional Churches of Christ, I've sometimes been amused at the creativity employed by those who were trying to keep it all consistent. <BR/><BR/>I can remember hearing a panel discussion in which a big-name CofC leader explained, with a straight face, that the silence of the Scriptures had to be regarded as exclusionary; if it wasn't, how would we deny instrumental music?<BR/><BR/>I think that what bugs me about Lent is not Lent; it's the neglect of the Supper. You mentioned, John Alan, that in some Churches of Christ, the doctrine and practice of Lord's Supper has "caught up" to our traditional view of baptism. Where do I go to "place membership"?Frank Bellizzihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07949066335378651585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-39689468412986167642007-03-21T09:58:00.000-05:002007-03-21T09:58:00.000-05:00Greg, I like the way you said that, and that is I ...Greg, I like the way you said that, and that is I guess where I was going. <BR/>Matt, I think you are right in what you assume about John Ogren.<BR/>I know John and his wife Wendy (who is undoubtedly one of the children's ministry guru's of our fellowship, and David Wray's daughter)very well. They are both extremely intellectual people, but it is their heart for people and ministry that will make you love them.Arlene Kasselmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17215920805448767403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-73208438011574794202007-03-21T08:40:00.000-05:002007-03-21T08:40:00.000-05:00Frank,We did lots of things that don't have any sc...Frank,<BR/>We did lots of things that don't have any scriptural basis: Sunday School; bus ministry; owning our own building; invitation songs. <BR/><BR/>Those didn't bother us very much. Looking back it seems somewhat arbitrary -- which things we accepted vs. rejected. <BR/><BR/>I do think there's more Roman Catholicism running around in the Churches of Christ than we'd ever admit out loud. We take a sacramental view of baptism and (in some places) the Lord's Supper. We have a high view of The Church and its traditions.john alan turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03065084395340701275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-85936660352317649112007-03-20T22:10:00.000-05:002007-03-20T22:10:00.000-05:00Matt, Arlene, and Greg: Thanks so much for your i...Matt, Arlene, and Greg: Thanks so much for your input. I'm really glad to have conversation partners like you.Frank Bellizzihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07949066335378651585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-70063155826041294642007-03-20T15:25:00.000-05:002007-03-20T15:25:00.000-05:00I think the scriptural versus unscriptural discuss...I think the scriptural versus unscriptural discussion is the wrong concern and unproductive. To ask what is scriptural is to have a legal versus illegal mentality. <BR/><BR/>Lent is never alleged by anyone to be mandated by scripture. As a practice, it was developed as a formative help, and that it can be.<BR/><BR/>This is my fourth year of observing Lent with others (never mandated, but as an option), and it has only become richer each year. I have discovered more about myself, about Jesus' 40 days in the desert, temptation, my need for grace, and much more. <BR/><BR/>For those who want to think in the "scriptural mandated" mode . . . fasting is absolutely expected by Jesus and practiced in the early church, though generally ignored by those who claim to be scriptural. For those who want to argue against Lent being unscriptural, they argue against fasting, repentance, mourning, self-denial, prayer and much else.<BR/><BR/>One of my devotions for Lent this year to write a daily prayer, which may be found at (http://web.mac.com/disciplesfellowship/iWeb/Travelers/Lenten%20Prayers.html).<BR/><BR/>I heartily recommend Lent and much more from the Christian calendar for our spiritual formation.<BR/><BR/>Peace.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15807657586563500686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-49574751114643166302007-03-20T14:00:00.000-05:002007-03-20T14:00:00.000-05:00I think that any practices we can put in place in ...I think that any practices we can put in place in the rythym of life that help us draw in close to Jesus are awesome. One could argue that "centering prayer" or some of the other spiritual disciplines are not "scriptural" but they are so formative in our spiritual formation.<BR/><BR/>Trying to retain indentity markers as a movement just does not resonate with me or my experiences. My prayer is that looking like Jesus is the only identity marker we care about.Arlene Kasselmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17215920805448767403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10020592.post-16894727251447706142007-03-20T12:56:00.000-05:002007-03-20T12:56:00.000-05:00On one side you have people say - whatever helps d...On one side you have people say - whatever helps draw people closer to God is something that couldn't hurt so why not.<BR/><BR/>The other extreme would say - if a denomination does it, we can't.<BR/><BR/>There is a HUGE difference between Lent and the Lord's Supper. It seems to me that Ogren is just using an example of something CofC folks already know to help them see what Lent is kind of like. Just like a parable, not everything is parallel in meaning/not everything that applies to the Lord's Supper applies to Lent. Just my 2 cents. God blessMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14368791607689982645noreply@blogger.com